Yes, over there they state a WAW with a low frequency highpass xover point to the widerange, somewhere around 200-300Hz.
What we are doing for 2025 are 1.5-ways, which are something entirely different. They are still assisted, but in a very different way.
Inspired by your reply, I did a quick search and it seems that I have misunderstood the WAW concept. It does appear to be an actual 2 way with a low crossover point. I stand corrected, Thanks!
Both Bill and I demo'd our Indy2025 theme projects. I don't think either of us really received much feedback on how they actually sounded. That's ok. I'm not really motivated to do anymore tweaking on them moving forward. They are what the are.
I thought they both sounded great, but both limited on SPL and on some tracks they could use a tweeter. I believe they were both pretty well respected full range drivers to use. My $.02
If seperate-chambered it is only a crossover redesign away from WAW atleast. Mine can't, but I am treating the foibles like beauty marks. I wouldn't have built them if I didn't think it was something I'd want to listen to. Playing at the gatherings is kind of a worst case scenario torture test compared to my room/listening distance and position.
I agree that they are not a design of permanence as proposed for the coming theme. A network change, and a WAW it becomes in most cases. Or, a super tweeter and augmentation on both ends ensues.
This is more of an exercise than some others of been prior.
@PWRRYD said:
Both Bill and I demo'd our Indy2025 theme projects. I don't think either of us really received much feedback on how they actually sounded. That's ok. I'm not really motivated to do anymore tweaking on them moving forward. They are what the are.
The nice thing is that we could compare our projects to the sound of alot of other great two and three way speakers. For me, it was a sanity check to see how the full range 1.5 concept stacks up. As expected, my speakers lacked the "airy" high frequency extension of a good tweeter. The midrange, however, from about 100Hz to 5khz, seemed very competitive. Lacking in deep bass, but my cabs were very small and sealed. At the levels used, I did not notice significant distortion coming from the windbanders in the 20 to 80Hz region. Probably due to a masking effect of the woofer's output, covering up the distortion of the widebander. Not sure on that. Any comments on the sound quality of my speakers is very welcome.
My speakers had open PVC ports on the top. These will need to be covered up with a new box section going over the top for the Indy event. No external ports allowed. I'll probably stuff the upper cab compartment with denim and then vent it to the woofer cabinet with several 1/2" diameter holes drilled into the top. Like a double vented chamber of sorts. This will extend the bass a little, moving toward a critically damped Qtc 0.5 sealed alignment. Currently, Qtc is about .79 or so for the woofer.
I always hate asking for clarification on Ben's Challenges, makes me feel dumb that I am never sure if what I have in mind fits the criterion.
--
One Full Range driver, no high pass allowed on it, running more or less full out, just maybe a notch filter or some shaping, can be attenuated with resistors to bring overall lever down.
(Or are we allowed to high pass the full range?)
Flanked by a pair of woofers in a Woofer/Full Range/Woofer config (using very inefficient small woofers), woofers lowpassed and shaped to fill in the bottom the full range does not have.
As far as I read.. the original post would answer most of those questions.
"..no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed. Multiple woofers allowed.."
" Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units.."
(seems "out front" means in the signal path before all the drivers/low pass, Notch/shaping technically is applied to all drivers then)
I don't think a limitation of driver placement on the baffle was ever given, just that woofers are the same model if multiples. Up to you to figure out how to keep the widebander and woofer/s isolated from each other in the enclosure.. and to keep impedance from going too low.
Cheat and leverage the fact that project likely driven by crown xls amp so no fear of dipping to 2 ohms heh.
Been leaning toward mtm like design likely using the dual epic7's that sitting idle and prob a mark audio pluvia 7 for the wide band - prob 1-1.2cuft overall with big ole pvc pipe/tunnel in middle. Will see how the Z dips. Wish I hadnt sold off some pluvia7's that had owned but see if come up on holiday sales. Plenty of time between now and Apr2025.
@traw said:
Cheat and leverage the fact that project likely driven by crown xls amp so no fear of dipping to 2 ohms heh.
Been leaning toward mtm like design likely using the dual epic7's that sitting idle and prob a mark audio pluvia 7 for the wide band - prob 1-1.2cuft overall with big ole pvc pipe/tunnel in middle. Will see how the Z dips. Wish I hadnt sold off some pluvia7's that had owned but see if come up on holiday sales. Plenty of time between now and Apr2025.
Actually, this XO makes more sense to me as to what is expected and what is going on.
"Woofers and widebanders do not have to be the same drivers. If more than one woofer, then they must be the same."
I had interpreted the above quoted rule to mean that if you use 2 woofers, then the woofers and widebanders must be the same driver. But in light of the above posts, it looks like I was misinterpreting this rule. It looks like only the woofers need to be the same driver. I initially thought that if you used 3 drivers, then all 3 drivers, including the widebander, had to be the same driver.
More than one woofer, then woofers must match. This was NOT meant to be that all 3 drivers must be the same. For example, I am using a TB4" and hopefully a pair of Ushers per box.
Comments
Jason, that would be a killer combo in an MTM setup. The rs100 is a great fullrange speaker one of my favorites.
Ken you missed it, and Iowa Craig decide MTMs are out.
Iowa Craig.. is that like a special personality?
At Iowa, lol... seemed like that was the discussion after Craig presented the Mac MTM
Tired of 109dB Barbie Girl torture?
InDIYana Event Website
For the contest, wouldn't this need to be called an MMM? MTM's are excluded.
Nope, WWW, woofer-wideband-woofer.
InDIYana Event Website
Or perhaps WFW, or FWW, etc F for full-range
I think the currently used term on DIYAudio is WAW, woofer assisted widerange...
Yes, over there they state a WAW with a low frequency highpass xover point to the widerange, somewhere around 200-300Hz.
What we are doing for 2025 are 1.5-ways, which are something entirely different. They are still assisted, but in a very different way.
InDIYana Event Website
Inspired by your reply, I did a quick search and it seems that I have misunderstood the WAW concept. It does appear to be an actual 2 way with a low crossover point. I stand corrected, Thanks!
A much better design concept IMHO but no need to debate that anymore.
Both Bill and I demo'd our Indy2025 theme projects. I don't think either of us really received much feedback on how they actually sounded. That's ok. I'm not really motivated to do anymore tweaking on them moving forward. They are what the are.
I thought they both sounded great, but both limited on SPL and on some tracks they could use a tweeter. I believe they were both pretty well respected full range drivers to use. My $.02
https://www.jfcomponents.com/
At first blush they were fine, but as the demo unfolded the limitations became apparent. This is a pretty compromised design theory.
If seperate-chambered it is only a crossover redesign away from WAW atleast. Mine can't, but I am treating the foibles like beauty marks. I wouldn't have built them if I didn't think it was something I'd want to listen to. Playing at the gatherings is kind of a worst case scenario torture test compared to my room/listening distance and position.
I agree that they are not a design of permanence as proposed for the coming theme. A network change, and a WAW it becomes in most cases. Or, a super tweeter and augmentation on both ends ensues.
This is more of an exercise than some others of been prior.
InDIYana Event Website
The nice thing is that we could compare our projects to the sound of alot of other great two and three way speakers. For me, it was a sanity check to see how the full range 1.5 concept stacks up. As expected, my speakers lacked the "airy" high frequency extension of a good tweeter. The midrange, however, from about 100Hz to 5khz, seemed very competitive. Lacking in deep bass, but my cabs were very small and sealed. At the levels used, I did not notice significant distortion coming from the windbanders in the 20 to 80Hz region. Probably due to a masking effect of the woofer's output, covering up the distortion of the widebander. Not sure on that. Any comments on the sound quality of my speakers is very welcome.
My speakers had open PVC ports on the top. These will need to be covered up with a new box section going over the top for the Indy event. No external ports allowed. I'll probably stuff the upper cab compartment with denim and then vent it to the woofer cabinet with several 1/2" diameter holes drilled into the top. Like a double vented chamber of sorts. This will extend the bass a little, moving toward a critically damped Qtc 0.5 sealed alignment. Currently, Qtc is about .79 or so for the woofer.
I always hate asking for clarification on Ben's Challenges, makes me feel dumb that I am never sure if what I have in mind fits the criterion.
--
One Full Range driver, no high pass allowed on it, running more or less full out, just maybe a notch filter or some shaping, can be attenuated with resistors to bring overall lever down.
(Or are we allowed to high pass the full range?)
Flanked by a pair of woofers in a Woofer/Full Range/Woofer config (using very inefficient small woofers), woofers lowpassed and shaped to fill in the bottom the full range does not have.
--
^am I close?
Thank you, David.
As far as I read.. the original post would answer most of those questions.
"..no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed. Multiple woofers allowed.."
" Contours out front are allowed but then affect both or more units.."
(seems "out front" means in the signal path before all the drivers/low pass, Notch/shaping technically is applied to all drivers then)
I don't think a limitation of driver placement on the baffle was ever given, just that woofers are the same model if multiples. Up to you to figure out how to keep the widebander and woofer/s isolated from each other in the enclosure.. and to keep impedance from going too low.
Correct.
InDIYana Event Website
Cheat and leverage the fact that project likely driven by crown xls amp so no fear of dipping to 2 ohms heh.
Been leaning toward mtm like design likely using the dual epic7's that sitting idle and prob a mark audio pluvia 7 for the wide band - prob 1-1.2cuft overall with big ole pvc pipe/tunnel in middle. Will see how the Z dips. Wish I hadnt sold off some pluvia7's that had owned but see if come up on holiday sales. Plenty of time between now and Apr2025.
Actually, this XO makes more sense to me as to what is expected and what is going on.
Thank you,
David.
"Woofers and widebanders do not have to be the same drivers. If more than one woofer, then they must be the same."
I had interpreted the above quoted rule to mean that if you use 2 woofers, then the woofers and widebanders must be the same driver. But in light of the above posts, it looks like I was misinterpreting this rule. It looks like only the woofers need to be the same driver. I initially thought that if you used 3 drivers, then all 3 drivers, including the widebander, had to be the same driver.
More than one woofer, then woofers must match. This was NOT meant to be that all 3 drivers must be the same. For example, I am using a TB4" and hopefully a pair of Ushers per box.
InDIYana Event Website
Time to play around with C, L, & Rs
You got the diffraction thing going for sure.
Diffraction smrifaction, that's quasibeam loading control surfaces. You just stick to those tall skinny fancy smancy pretty speakers, Jonny!
That the Rival 8", Eric?
Yup