what is "formiable"? one design i wanted to make was make the midrange strech beyond what we typically do, so maybe cover from say 100 to 3000+ or some other very broad range, so the woofer or super tweeter is just filling in the extreme ends, just so it doesn't end up being a single driver or FAST config
I'm a fan of keeping, where possible, the Xover outside of the high ear sensitivity range (approx 1kHz to 4kHz), and having the midrange be 'formidable'. Generally looking at 'full-rangers' / 'broad rangers' i.e. Fostex, MarkAudio, for their extension. Many have very limited Xmax which limits the lower end (at volume), and need to work with the narrowing at the top end (pairing with the tweeter). 100Hz is quite the stretch. I've gone from ~280Hz in some of my speaker builds, and my current build ~350Hz on the low-end, and at or above 6kHz , crossed to a slot super-tw.
But the Von Schweikert UniField Model 3 is a what they call an 'augmented' one-way with the mid (a Fostex) being augmented below 100HZ and 8kHz at the top.
@tajanes said:
But the Von Schweikert UniField Model 3 is a what they call and 'augmented' one-way with the mid (a Fostex) being augmented below 100HZ and 8kHz at the top.
All of my speakers are augmented one-way speakers...i.e., sometimes augmented only at the top end (usually 2-3Khz and up) and sometimes additionally augmented at the low end (below 400 or 350Hz). That is, two- or three- way speakers.
@a4eaudio said:
All of my speakers are augmented one-way speakers...
Tru dat (somewhat).
However, we’ve probably all have seen / heard many 3ways where the mid has (outside an audible +/- 6dB range of the woofer and tweeter roll offs) barely an octave (or an octave and ½) to show off its stuff. It’s all about the midrange imo (although Meghan Trainor may disagree- ha).
I have used that concept and it definitely has merit. That said, with pure passive crossovers it's kinda rough trying to properly cross a woofer to a fullrange around that low target point (< 200 Hz). The fullrange to ribbon tweeter passively is easy. I think that's where a hybrid active/passive crossover shines. Unfortunately not everyone wants a DSP crossover with 4 channels of amplification.
Yeah that is what I was thinking. Alot of expense and headache dealing with an xo that low.. seems unnecessary when you can just use a sub around those frequencies.
@PWRRYD said:
I think that's where a hybrid active/passive crossover shines. Unfortunately not everyone wants a DSP crossover with 4 channels of amplification.
When I found a solid 4ch amp (325x4 8ohm /650x4 4ohm) in combo with the miniDSP (which quickly pays for itself vs massive large inductors) I sold my pair of Acurus 150s and not looking back. Still enjoying passive btwn mid and tw, and running twin cables in one sleeve to the speakers with 4 pole SpeakOns - clean. Really opens up options, including simplifying the passive btwn mid and tw.
I built a system with a 4" mid from 300 hz to 3000 hz and it did really well. It was active and I ended up with a 4 way in the end. It's my reference system.
So, here is a list of the suggested and undone:
"Tweeterectomy" - no tweeters used, wideband plus woofer in 1.5way arrangement. 3" or larger widebander, must be cascaded contour network to the 0.5 woofer section. Contours allowed but then affect both units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed. Multiple woofers allowed, keep gross volume under 1.25ft^3.
"The 2 Tops" - using more than one tweeter.
"Paper Trail" - cardboard box constructions.
"Foaming at the Mouth" - foam enclosures.
"FourMidable" - stretch the 4" midrange 4 octaves.
"Askew" - incorporate weird angle.
"Pointing Fingers" - specific driver orientations.
"Stone Tablets and Chisels" - NLA ONLY.
"No See 'Ems" or "Punkies" - no visible drivers, no grills. MEH included. Tweeters can be visible.
"Lightweights" - set a weight limit.
"Hole in the Lobe" - use a 22mm tweeter with metal 6" or larger.
"Hounding Calisthenics" - use a high Qts woofer.
"Board to Death" - (2x) 2' x 4' x 3/4" thick panels, and Go!
"Dubious Respectability" - use a piezo, 13mm polyamide, vintage style cone tweeter.
"Shortcomings" - hard price limit of $100 or less at retail, all in including cabinets.
"Shelved Limits" - use an off the shelf xover, plus 3 additional parts in the design.
"Stringency" - use a set list of xover components: 1.5mH/0.1mH/0.25mH/15uF/10uF/6.8uF/open on resistors. I can't limit it to the boards as they are.
"Off Sides" - using 442 concept; 442 4 sides 4 drivers 2 sizes. 4 drivers of the same size on 4 different sides, only 2 size drivers per speaker. It could be 4 tweeters on 4 sides or 4 woofers on 4 sides or 4 woofers a matching size mid and tweeter.
"Art Project" - make them like a piece of art, PG rated.
"Happy Accidents" - try to make something work that shouldn't in theory.
"Brandios" - keep to one manufacturer.
"Monkey Business" - mimic Devore aesthetics.
"To Infinity and Beyond" - mimic vintage Infinity designs; dome mid and thin metal or film ribbon/planar/AMT tweeter required.
"Horns on Top" - you get the idea.
" Intersections" - 4way designs.
" Flagships" - use premium drivers from one brand.
Cool ideas. My preference is anything that requires some sort of xo challenge so that I develop my xo skills. Most of those listed do that, but a few are strictly construction oriented and I personally don't like the off-the-shelf xo idea although I do get it.
Comments
"To Infinity and Beyond" is a great name for it too!
I'm a fan of keeping, where possible, the Xover outside of the high ear sensitivity range (approx 1kHz to 4kHz), and having the midrange be 'formidable'. Generally looking at 'full-rangers' / 'broad rangers' i.e. Fostex, MarkAudio, for their extension. Many have very limited Xmax which limits the lower end (at volume), and need to work with the narrowing at the top end (pairing with the tweeter). 100Hz is quite the stretch. I've gone from ~280Hz in some of my speaker builds, and my current build ~350Hz on the low-end, and at or above 6kHz , crossed to a slot super-tw.
But the Von Schweikert UniField Model 3 is a what they call an 'augmented' one-way with the mid (a Fostex) being augmented below 100HZ and 8kHz at the top.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/von-schweikert-audio-unifield-model-three-loudspeaker-tas-198/
TB w4-1337 can go high pretty smoothly
All of my speakers are augmented one-way speakers...i.e., sometimes augmented only at the top end (usually 2-3Khz and up) and sometimes additionally augmented at the low end (below 400 or 350Hz). That is, two- or three- way speakers.
I have a pair of these and they are very good.
I really like its bamboo brother the W4-120SIF as well.
Tru dat (somewhat).
However, we’ve probably all have seen / heard many 3ways where the mid has (outside an audible +/- 6dB range of the woofer and tweeter roll offs) barely an octave (or an octave and ½) to show off its stuff. It’s all about the midrange imo (although Meghan Trainor may disagree- ha).
I have used that concept and it definitely has merit. That said, with pure passive crossovers it's kinda rough trying to properly cross a woofer to a fullrange around that low target point (< 200 Hz). The fullrange to ribbon tweeter passively is easy. I think that's where a hybrid active/passive crossover shines. Unfortunately not everyone wants a DSP crossover with 4 channels of amplification.
Yeah that is what I was thinking. Alot of expense and headache dealing with an xo that low.. seems unnecessary when you can just use a sub around those frequencies.
When I found a solid 4ch amp (325x4 8ohm /650x4 4ohm) in combo with the miniDSP (which quickly pays for itself vs massive large inductors) I sold my pair of Acurus 150s and not looking back. Still enjoying passive btwn mid and tw, and running twin cables in one sleeve to the speakers with 4 pole SpeakOns - clean. Really opens up options, including simplifying the passive btwn mid and tw.
I built a system with a 4" mid from 300 hz to 3000 hz and it did really well. It was active and I ended up with a 4 way in the end. It's my reference system.
"Board to death" - you get 2x 2'x4' 3/4" thick handipanels. Go!
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IB all the way!
Thats a cool idea Ben. You could even limit it to 1x lumber like 2-1x8x8.
"Intersections" - 4way designs.
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Oh! I've always wanted to "try" a passive 4 way design.
So, here is a list of the suggested and undone:
"Tweeterectomy" - no tweeters used, wideband plus woofer in 1.5way arrangement. 3" or larger widebander, must be cascaded contour network to the 0.5 woofer section. Contours allowed but then affect both units, padding on widebander allowed, but no actual electrical highpass on widebander allowed. Multiple woofers allowed, keep gross volume under 1.25ft^3.
"The 2 Tops" - using more than one tweeter.
"Paper Trail" - cardboard box constructions.
"Foaming at the Mouth" - foam enclosures.
"FourMidable" - stretch the 4" midrange 4 octaves.
"Askew" - incorporate weird angle.
"Pointing Fingers" - specific driver orientations.
"Stone Tablets and Chisels" - NLA ONLY.
"No See 'Ems" or "Punkies" - no visible drivers, no grills. MEH included. Tweeters can be visible.
"Lightweights" - set a weight limit.
"Hole in the Lobe" - use a 22mm tweeter with metal 6" or larger.
"Hounding Calisthenics" - use a high Qts woofer.
"Board to Death" - (2x) 2' x 4' x 3/4" thick panels, and Go!
"Dubious Respectability" - use a piezo, 13mm polyamide, vintage style cone tweeter.
"Shortcomings" - hard price limit of $100 or less at retail, all in including cabinets.
"Shelved Limits" - use an off the shelf xover, plus 3 additional parts in the design.
"Stringency" - use a set list of xover components: 1.5mH/0.1mH/0.25mH/15uF/10uF/6.8uF/open on resistors. I can't limit it to the boards as they are.
"Off Sides" - using 442 concept; 442 4 sides 4 drivers 2 sizes. 4 drivers of the same size on 4 different sides, only 2 size drivers per speaker. It could be 4 tweeters on 4 sides or 4 woofers on 4 sides or 4 woofers a matching size mid and tweeter.
"Art Project" - make them like a piece of art, PG rated.
"Happy Accidents" - try to make something work that shouldn't in theory.
"Brandios" - keep to one manufacturer.
"Monkey Business" - mimic Devore aesthetics.
"To Infinity and Beyond" - mimic vintage Infinity designs; dome mid and thin metal or film ribbon/planar/AMT tweeter required.
"Horns on Top" - you get the idea.
" Intersections" - 4way designs.
" Flagships" - use premium drivers from one brand.
Keep them coming, this is great!
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There are a bunch of ideas I would love to do and a few that I would skip. Have you set a deadline for making a decision?
Usually by July I've decided.
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Cool ideas. My preference is anything that requires some sort of xo challenge so that I develop my xo skills. Most of those listed do that, but a few are strictly construction oriented and I personally don't like the off-the-shelf xo idea although I do get it.
Lol, two of my favorites are on the opposite ends of the spectrum..."shortcomings" and "flagships".
Are you thinking about 4 octaves for the formidable? And what would you consider high Qts? for the calisthenics?
Ya know, that sounds reasonable. 4 octaves for the FourMidable. I'll rename it above...
High Qts would be 0.8 and higher, in my book.
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See what you did there - ha
If this were a democracy, I would definitely vote against ""Lightweights" - set a weight limit."
I don't seem capable of building anything under 50lbs...
For brand specific.. the name "Brandios" came to mind (a play on grandios).
I've been thinking about the four octaves on a mid. That is a lot. It should be easy, but it is not. And that rhymes so.......?
You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer the correct mid in any direction you choose…
(Sorry, Dr Seuss)
200 - 400 - 800 - 1600 - 3200
250 - 500 - 1000 - 2000 - 4000
300 - 600 - 1200 - 2400 - 4800
Not impossible, but not easy peesy by anymeans IMHO. A small 3" or 4" mid can handle that range but at a limited max SPL output.
I was thinking 312.5-625-1.25k-2.5k-5k.
Seems like a Prosound 5" mid would be a great candidate.
If this was Intersections 4ways, split those into 2 drivers.....
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